Curse

Tuna · Jun 21, 2005, 08:55 PM // 20:55

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Originally Posted by Schorny

You guys are funny.

I'm glad we entertain.

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And you are just so narrow minded. Why? I'll tell you.
You only see PvP. And that's it. It is nice, that you see at least a bit, but there is also PvE and PvE/PvP. All your (or most of your) suggestions would just upset the people the game was designed for: the PvE/PvP people.

Wow, baseless information! Back it up or go back to your hole.

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These are the people that enjoy to play through PvE and then battle each other with their toons in PvP. Consider this people and rethink your 'solutions':

If you read my last post you will realize that I did consider them. Again, if you don't give examples of our 'henious' solutions your statements mean little.

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Unlock All Skills when finishing the game:
It would defeat the purpose of replaying the game. So you effectively killed the PvE part.

Don't you 'unlock' the story once you finish the game also? Tell me how this doesn't kill the PvE part too. Playing the game more than once is grind.

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Unlock All Skills for PvP only chars:
Great. No every PvE player has to throw his toon in the garbage to be competetive? And I don't mean because of all the skills the PvP player has, but of the flexibility. A PvP only char at the moment is quite flexible, but because the skills need to be unlocked, the flexibility is not that big. So just a slight advantage for PvP only here, which is fine.

There is nothing stopping you from recreating your PvE toon as a PvP only. You can't tell with a straight face that most PvE chars will be equal to a PvP currently, so what does it matter if they get all the skills? What about the guy with every skill unlocked? He has the same advantage over you as if you took a PvE into UAS PvP. Read my post again, perticularly the last section.

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Separate PvP and PvE for a UAS - League:
It is one game and not 2. You would upset all PvE players.

Only PvEers ever bring this point up. Don't put your words in our mouths.

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More Skillpoints needed:
Yes indeed. But anet is working on it. And the last update (fixed xp needed for lvl up) is great. Just go a few times thorugh the underworld and you'll have a lot of skill points.
Maybe the SoC should cost 0 skillpoints, maybe, I don't know. But anet is working on it, so no need to whine here

Going through UW a few times will get you a few skill points, not a lot. Going through a 'few times' sounds like grind. Maybe you want grind, but I certainly don't. May as well watch progress quest.

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I don't want to run through this game a hundred times:
You don't need to. You can unlock the most important skills for 4 classes. So you have quite a bit of flexibility to play around in PvP.

Who deems which skills are important? As I see it all but a handfull are important, most of which you get in quests anyway.

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I also don't think that you truly need all skills per class. And I don't think you can master any class combination so easily. Of course, there are really good people who can - and for them (be best 5% of guild wars players) every single skill count, but I can hardly believe that so many people are that good.

You don't think, but I do. I'm also one of the "top 5%" or so and I need the flexibility offered by every skill.

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And just a thought: take a sunday afternoon with some of your friends and run a char through the game. Just do the missions and ignore the bonus - you'll ascend in the evening. So you got about 20 more skill points. Of course, this is grind, but it isn't really bad.

You might be able to do that if your friends are rushing you, but a typicall run through will take around 25 hours. If this grind wasn't that bad, do you think there'd be tons of people bitching about it on forums?

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It is like "hey, I want that nice armour - oh, it costs a millionen bucks? mhm, I got to go farming". Sometimes it needs work to get what you want. You don't NEED all the skills, you don't NEED to have all that stuff - it is nice to have (no doubt) but you really don't NEED it. You can put afford in it to get it (and let's face it: the afford required is very low).

Grind is unjustifiable. And yes, I need all the skills.

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Of course, it can be made easier for you. But please, please, please, please stop saying "there is no drawback if we do X", because there IS one. A major drawback. You are just too narrow minded (or careless) to see it. Just don't be focused on: "how can we make PvP better" try to focus on "how can we make GW better".

You can't say that there is "a major drawback" and then never list it. Lets hear it, and make sure its nothing thats already been covered. You'll also note that I'm not trying to make PvP better (ie: skill balances etc) but trying to make GW better. You are the close minded person who is trying to preserve uneeded MMORPG values in a game that shouldn't have them.

spirit_of_ice · Jun 21, 2005, 11:58 PM // 23:58

I seriously laughed when I saw the "PvE'ers are beating on PvP'ers" line, even more when I saw it a second time.
HAve you read any of your own posts? "PvE'ers don't think" "PvE'ers don't know what they are talknig about" seriously, read your own posts and you may see why some people come across as upset.

Also, try gonig into the game as a new PvE player and running missions with PvP players who are rushing through. Oh boy is that fun. The constant calls of "OMFG you noob!" when one team member makes a slight mistake which wont even affect the outcome of the mission and then oh, lo and behold, the PvP player vanishes into thin air after spewing a lsit of profanities. Try saying I'm generalising, but the amount of times this has happened to me makes it more than a joke. I am not joknig when I say this must have happened to me at least 50 times, and I am by far not a noob by any stretch of the imagination.

Also, if you really want to see why some people are really narked off, take a trip to the guilhall.net forums, and see the hundreds of threads whining about the same stuff OVER and OVER again. The same people repeating the same old junk for the umpteenth time. It gets repetitive, far more so than this alleged "grind" to become competitive.

The PvP community in general seems to think that you have to unlock every skill, on every class and every rune before you can play PvP effectiely. Heres news for you jack, unlock one characters skills you want for a build, then go play PvP. Then when you can be bothered, or want to change build, go find the other skills you want, come back, paly PvP until you want to change again. Rinse, wash, repeat.

I was playing competitive PvP since the end of week 2. And now if I want a new build I go out and unlock the skills I want, which doesn't take too long. (make 3 RP chars and 1 PvP char, only advance with an RP char when you want a skill further on).

You may need them all for variation, but you don't need them right NOW. You ahve all the time in the world to get the skills when you want them, and it would take me under 4 days to get the 8 skills unlocked for a new build I ahd thought of, if I hadnt got any of the skills unlocked.

As for runes, anyone who thinks you needs superiors needs to try going into the PvP field without them. It makes jack all difference, and if you have played through PvE then you should have enough money to buy the runes you want and a weapon with stats you want anyway.

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Um. Why should you have to delete a pvp character every time you want to try a new bulid? I mean since you can do that why not just do away with the refund points, huh? Not to mention it defeats the purpose of fame and ranks if you delete your character. BTW, what are you so sad about?

Because it takes about as much time as respeccing would anyway, and doesnt take out the refunds for the people who like the challenge of having them. Plus fame and ranks are account based not character based, surely a PvPer should know that?

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dragon dies) "Welcome! Please insert SoC card, and choose your language. Do you wish to withdraw Greneth's Balance or come back another time? Have a pleasant day and thank you for stopping by the Dragon's Lair."

They could've allowed ONLY elite captures on bosses so mistakes can be avoided, forced the bosses to spam the elites once the conditions were met, then after he cast the elite once, allow the players to capture it anytime before he died. That's a nice compromise before they completely trashed the old system.

I'm part of the proud -60%DP Althea's Ashes Walking Zombie club, who didn't need a nerf to grit it out until the end. I'm part of the dejected Villainy of Galrath's Was Avenged But All I Got Was a Lousy 500 XP club.... I can go on and on. Please don't sit there and try to say that ANY of us don't respect the PvE game and how important it is for Guild Wars. I got 160 hours of PvE time to back up my support of both (in perspective). Do you have 160 hours of PvP time to show YOU support both? I thought so.

some people like to cap none elite skills from bosses as you can get them earlier in the game that way, and if you make a mistake highliting a skill on a list and clicking accept then really you deserve whatever skill you got, because it takes a MAJOR blunder or stupidity to do that.

Oh and don't ask for improvements then complain when they come. You ma ynot ahve asked for villany to be updated, but now it is don't complain about a good thing. Oh no, you missed out on it, shame, you are also much further into the game than anyone who has yet to complete Galraths anyway, and so have more skill poitns and levels, so stop griping.

Oh and you've got 160 hours of play out of a game. Most games PvE (single player) give you 15-20 hours. Be gald you got your moneys worth and enjoy it.

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Wow, baseless information! Back it up or go back to your hole

Try looking at some of the polls over on guildhalls.net, statistically shows that the vast majority of GW players are Pve and Pve players, not one or the other. I also doubt he lives in a whole, so stop using baseless information and back it up!

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Only PvEers ever bring this point up. Don't put your words in our mouths

No, PvPers bring up the points that would cause this to happen, they jsut seem to be unable to see from the PvE'ers point of view that this is what will happen and instead accuse them of puttin words in their mouths, when in fact the PvE'er is looknig at the wider picture than a quick-fix.

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You don't think, but I do. I'm also one of the "top 5%" or so and I need the flexibility offered by every skill.

Need, no. Want, yes. If you and your guild have people assigned to a couple of specific roles (ie/ a few players who specialise in monks and eles, a few who specialise in warriors and rangers etc.) then you get rid of this problem entirely. You don't need to be able to fill any role at any time, thats why you have your guild. Just make sure your team builds include the classes that people specialise in, it isnt hard.

Rather than making a meal of it go and find solutions to get around it, after all, thats what the entire concept of GW PvP is about, so you should be good at that.

Stauf · Jun 22, 2005, 03:39 AM // 03:39

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Because it takes about as much time as respeccing would anyway,

Not really. It's just kind of a stupid design to make a new character just to switch some attributes around when you could more quickly just do it in-game with the same character. That's all I'm saying.

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and doesnt take out the refunds for the people who like the challenge of having them.

I don't get this. The challenge of having them? That's kind of a boring challenge isn't it? If you're doing PvP I would think think the fun is based on matching up different skill sets, experimenting, and seeing how well you can use the skills in battle. But if that's what YOU like then I guess I can't really argue.

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Plus fame and ranks are account based not character based, surely a PvPer should know that?

ROFL! "surely a PvPer should know that". My bad; I didn't know that. But surely you're not trying to peg me into a certain category such as "PvPer". Oh, wait, you are. Nice try. I enjoy both PvE and PvP aspects of the game, I just don't see why one necessarily has to take away from the other. Maybe you should calm down on the PvP'er hate a little bit

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Tuna · Jun 22, 2005, 04:12 AM // 04:12

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Originally Posted by spirit_of_ice

Also, try gonig into the game as a new PvE player and running missions with PvP players who are rushing through. Oh boy is that fun. The constant calls of "OMFG you noob!" when one team member makes a slight mistake which wont even affect the outcome of the mission and then oh, lo and behold, the PvP player vanishes into thin air after spewing a lsit of profanities. Try saying I'm generalising, but the amount of times this has happened to me makes it more than a joke. I am not joknig when I say this must have happened to me at least 50 times, and I am by far not a noob by any stretch of the imagination.

You generalize idiots with PvPers. Change 'PvP player' to 'stupid immature player' and I agree with you 100%.

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Also, if you really want to see why some people are really narked off, take a trip to the guilhall.net forums, and see the hundreds of threads whining about the same stuff OVER and OVER again. The same people repeating the same old junk for the umpteenth time. It gets repetitive, far more so than this alleged "grind" to become competitive.

People keep agruing about this stuff because a. there are obviously some misconceptions about the two sides and b. nobody ever actually reads and comprehends what other people are saying.

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The PvP community in general seems to think that you have to unlock every skill, on every class and every rune before you can play PvP effectiely. Heres news for you jack, unlock one characters skills you want for a build, then go play PvP. Then when you can be bothered, or want to change build, go find the other skills you want, come back, paly PvP until you want to change again. Rinse, wash, repeat.

This is like saying you are only going to have socket sizes 11 and 13 for your rachet set. Whenever you encounter a need for different size you go run down to the store and buy it. Why not just get a complete set?

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I was playing competitive PvP since the end of week 2. And now if I want a new build I go out and unlock the skills I want, which doesn't take too long. (make 3 RP chars and 1 PvP char, only advance with an RP char when you want a skill further on).

You may need them all for variation, but you don't need them right NOW. You ahve all the time in the world to get the skills when you want them, and it would take me under 4 days to get the 8 skills unlocked for a new build I ahd thought of, if I hadnt got any of the skills unlocked.

In 4 days the last build is old and crusty and theres a shiny new one waiting to be tried out. Waiting for people to get all the skills for your build is a huge waste of time. This is especially troublesome for people who can't play as often as others and thus have fewer skill points.

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As for runes, anyone who thinks you needs superiors needs to try going into the PvP field without them. It makes jack all difference, and if you have played through PvE then you should have enough money to buy the runes you want and a weapon with stats you want anyway.

Runes increase the efficieny of a character. In some cases its a small amount and in others a large. If you don't use runes your character is gimped.

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Oh and you've got 160 hours of play out of a game. Most games PvE (single player) give you 15-20 hours. Be gald you got your moneys worth and enjoy it.

We're trying to but this nasty PvE thing keeps popping up.

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Try looking at some of the polls over on guildhalls.net, statistically shows that the vast majority of GW players are Pve and Pve players, not one or the other. I also doubt he lives in a whole, so stop using baseless information and back it up!

The baseless information line was used because he quoted PvPers trying to get game ruining changes but never stated what these mysterious changes are. And for the record I'd say pretty much everyone does both PvE and PvP since PvE is almost a requirement for PvP

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No, PvPers bring up the points that would cause this to happen, they jsut seem to be unable to see from the PvE'ers point of view that this is what will happen and instead accuse them of puttin words in their mouths, when in fact the PvE'er is looknig at the wider picture than a quick-fix.

Which points are these? Please, leave a list of everything a PvEer thinks would ruin this game and I will defend them. Reasons why would be.. excellent also.

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Need, no. Want, yes. If you and your guild have people assigned to a couple of specific roles (ie/ a few players who specialise in monks and eles, a few who specialise in warriors and rangers etc.) then you get rid of this problem entirely. You don't need to be able to fill any role at any time, thats why you have your guild. Just make sure your team builds include the classes that people specialise in, it isnt hard.

While you are correct, you also miss an important aspect of Guild Wars; you get two classes. This means that while I may primarily play an elementalist, I also need unknown skills from my secondary class. Granted, I wouldn't need executioners strike or dual shot, but there are a slew of skills from every profession that could easily find their way onto a elementalists skill bar. However, for a situation like mine where I play elementalist, warrior, and ranger, a great number (read: all) of skills are needed.

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Rather than making a meal of it go and find solutions to get around it, after all, thats what the entire concept of GW PvP is about, so you should be good at that.

Guild Wars is about finding solutions, however it is not about finding solutions around flexibility limiting game mechanics.

In closing I would like to say that I would be more than happy to address any of your PvP vs PvE concerns provided that you do your own homework by backing up your information and actually listing the points on which you think PvPers err.

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 22, 2005, 01:52 PM // 13:52

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Originally Posted by Spark

"after I mentionned that UAS was for Flavor copycat"

Possibly for some, but as you said, that's not what I want to do! I have played lots of Magic: TG and I must say that my favorite tournaments are the ones that allow Proxies (IE Fake cards [I play Type 1 so cards are expensive]). It allows everyone to fully explore their ideas and play at their full potential despite what they own. Yes, some people will use it to make perfect copy cat builds, but others will use it to explore classes they havent had the time to unlock in PvE.

I think in the end it will improve competition. The FotM will be more pronounced, but people will be able to produce counter strategies much more readily, which I think is more healthy for the enviroment as a whole.

I used to play Magic.... a bit more than 10 years ago

Sure, you can play Magic with "UAS" of some sorts, allowing you to play whatever you fancy.
You also got to acknowledge that Magic was copycat kingdom... And that's why there is a metagame to it...

However, if you want to be competitive, you don't need access to all the cards. You can have a very simple deck, with very cheap cards, and play for the win. No matter what the flavour of the month is.
A simple winnie white, a fast green/red, a counter blue, are all easy to do with very common cards. They might be hard to play and requires good timing, and they won't win all the games, but those could be competitive/ troublesome no matter what they face.
There is also a learning curve about how to play a deck... Even a simple counter blue deck (aka mesmer in GW) requires practice to be played right. It's also true of a white winnie or a fast green/red.
Guess what, I take bet that with UAS, most people will jump from copycat to copycat, without taking the time to learn the way their build/deck works.
How would that improve competition?

I'd rather play with a mesmer with no elite but who went throught all PvE content, got a clear idea of how its skills works and what he got to do, than a mesmer who made a copycat of a build he saw on internet but no practice with it.

what I'd like, instead of a UAS, and to have some competitive build even without unlocking PvE content, is way more and way better PvP premade character. Like the equivalent for GW of the builds I mentionned above in Magic. I got no issue giving premade characters superior rune and equipement relevant to their job. I got no issue having like 200+ of them. I got no issue if those builds are sometimes very specialised. Lot of competitive premade would give PvPer flexibility and keep PvEer some of their character building uniqueness.

Louis,

Louis Ste Colombe · Jun 22, 2005, 02:03 PM // 14:03

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Originally Posted by Tuna

Guild Wars is about finding solutions, however it is not about finding solutions around flexibility limiting game mechanics.

I think that those "flexibility limiting game mechanics" are actually an incentive to find creative solutions...

For me the fun is finding out what I can do with a limited pool. With everything, chances are solutions will be easier to find. And less fun. Please note the "for me". I understand you got fun in different ways, but since I am playing this game too, I voice my opinion for it not to change

After UAS, what's the next step then? The two class limit? That is for sure a game mechanics that limits flexibility... I'd find better solutions with Spellbreakers and Rend Enchantment available no matter what class I play.

Louis,

spirit_of_ice · Jun 22, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

[QUOTE=Tuna]You generalize idiots with PvPers. Change 'PvP player' to 'stupid immature player' and I agree with you 100%.[QUOTE]

I tend to end up arguing with them, and 9 times out of 10 they bring up "you obviously don't play PvP noob". This tends to make me think they are PvP players, don't know about you.

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People keep agruing about this stuff because a. there are obviously some misconceptions about the two sides and b. nobody ever actually reads and comprehends what other people are saying.

They do read what is said and they do comprehend, they just don't agree. Don't confuse those two terms, and don't fall into the trap of thinking that people who don't agree with you are idiots. The only misconception there is is that by posting you will actually change the opinion of any of hte posters of the forum, or the areanet staff.

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This is like saying you are only going to have socket sizes 11 and 13 for your rachet set. Whenever you encounter a need for different size you go run down to the store and buy it. Why not just get a complete set?

Difference is, each raquet shop olny sells 2 racquets, and each shop is many miles apart, and you have no car, so why bother to go buy the other racquets when you dont need them? If you find out that theres a problem which needs a different kind of rachet you either borrow your friends rachet or go to the store and buy your new one.

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In 4 days the last build is old and crusty and theres a shiny new one waiting to be tried out. Waiting for people to get all the skills for your build is a huge waste of time. This is especially troublesome for people who can't play as often as others and thus have fewer skill points.

If you've played through the game with 1 character you should ahve all the none elite skills for that character, as long as you take the time to complete skill quests rather than try to buy all teh skills. changing your build doesnt take effort as long ass you stick to the same class combo, and sticking to one class combo allows you to perfect it. Take a look at N0, they have people who concentrate on a class.

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Runes increase the efficieny of a character. In some cases its a small amount and in others a large. If you don't use runes your character is gimped.

Minor and Major do, sure, but Minor and Major you can buy from a rune trader without much effort. Superiors dont give enough of an effect to actually gimp you or unbalance the PvP game.

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We're trying to but this nasty PvE thing keeps popping up.

Since before UAS PvP has been the end of game reward, not something you are meant to dive right into. The PvP characters are there to allow you a taster of PvP and to let you vary your characters once you have got to the end. The whole "jumping into PvP" thing is a myth that came up relatively recently. PvE only needs to be completed once to get into the PvP game.

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The baseless information line was used because he quoted PvPers trying to get game ruining changes but never stated what these mysterious changes are. And for the record I'd say pretty much everyone does both PvE and PvP since PvE is almost a requirement for PvP

Sorry, by "plays" I actually meant "enjoys". The "game ruining changes" in the opinion of a lot of people would be UAS, or some of the other things PvPers seem to want which I cant remember at the moment thanks to extreme tiredness.

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Which points are these? Please, leave a list of everything a PvEer thinks would ruin this game and I will defend them. Reasons why would be.. excellent also.

UAS toggle- knocks out any kind of PvE reward, and there arent enough asthetic rewards to make up for it.

UAS upon game completion- Knocks out any replayability, and lets people play classes they know nothing about without practicing with them first, causing much aggro in PvP when people play classes they are unfamiliar with, and I think everybody would agree there is already far too much aggro on the PvP field without the calls of "noob" being added.

UAS for classes you complete game with- not needed at all, by the end of the game you should have unlocked almost every none elite skill, and elite skils are given SoC for a reason.

Unlocking via PvP- no qualms, if they did this itd make me happier than any of the other solutions

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While you are correct, you also miss an important aspect of Guild Wars; you get two classes. This means that while I may primarily play an elementalist, I also need unknown skills from my secondary class. Granted, I wouldn't need executioners strike or dual shot, but there are a slew of skills from every profession that could easily find their way onto a elementalists skill bar. However, for a situation like mine where I play elementalist, warrior, and ranger, a great number (read: all) of skills are needed.

Which is why I wish they had made the changing your secondary profession better. Giving people say, all the skill points they spent on secondary skills back when you change secondary.

Once you have unlocked all the skills for your class and secondary, then unlocknig skills for other classes becomes optional if you take the route of assigning people classes, and you also know that the people will be good at playing it. You should be using your time playing through PvE to learn the ropes of your character, and by the time you have got to end game you should be able to head into PvP and whoop ass.

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Guild Wars is about finding solutions, however it is not about finding solutions around flexibility limiting game mechanics.

Finding solutions is always about working around restrictions, otherwhise you wouldn't ahve a problem that needs a solution. working with a limited skillset makes you a much better player over time, as you begin to rely on things other than what skills you have on the bar- things like tactics, timing and positioning.

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In closing I would like to say that I would be more than happy to address any of your PvP vs PvE concerns provided that you do your own homework by backing up your information and actually listing the points on which you think PvPers err.

I have done, many times, and every time they read it and post a rebuttal. Over tiem Ive learnt that Im not going to change peoples stance of the game except by trying to come up with new solutions. Thats what I tried to do on the guildhall forums when there was the argument of capturing elites, by putting forward the idea of capturing skills when the boss was dead by using a list...and look what came from that.

Using the old solutions which you know people disagree with doesnt get you anywhere. New solutions are the way forward.

KingKryton · Jun 23, 2005, 12:22 AM // 00:22

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Originally Posted by arredondo

Suggestions are after the rant:

I don't understand how Arena.net just continues to stick their thumb in the eye of players who want the creative freedom to enjoy the PvP sandbox of creating and executing innovative builds. WHY is it so tightly connected to PvE to get the most out of it? There is no logical sense to it... it's as if someone wanted to enjoy all the features of Counter Strike: Source, they'd have to complete Half-Life 2 a minimum of three times (unlocking all character skills in PvE.

The reason why pure PvE players don't get these complaints is because they don't HAVE to put hundreds of hours into PvP just to enjoy their adventures. One side (PvE) gets to be free to play as they wish, while the other side (PvP) is just handcuffed to a contextually unrelated gameplay experience. How is that not discrimination? How about a system equal for ALL to enjoy the half of the game that THEY want to play?

Please, hear out the specific problems and suggested solutions. Always keep in mind though that the PvE side does NOT have to deal with the same frustration of being forced to deal with the other half of the game. I'll even begin by saying a respectable compromise is that a new Guild Wars player has to complete all the missions and ascend at least once before you allow access to most of the suggestions below. The goal should be to allow freedom on each half of the game near equally:

1. Please change that frustrating ball and chain called Attribute Refund points!

It is this issue alone that has me pulling my hair and drove me to post this thread. I've taken 160 enjoyable hours to do all of PvE. Only now is most of my time in PvP until the expansion. I have soooooo many ideas for my combo class, that I spend hours refining my techniques and testing in arenas. Thrills and chills, right?

Well, it's great until I run out of Attributes and am stuck with a test build so off the wall specifc, that I can't easily get back to a 'normal' build. Go play PvE? First off WHY the ball and chain? Does PvE have to play 20 PvP matches before than can capture an elite? Not to mention that my build is very arena/PvP specific, that I can't farm my way to 24 refund points. It used to take me 15 grinding minutes to solo farm Golems at 672 XP a mob for this purpose,... now you are even taking THAT away from us.

I could make a run in UW or FoW, but my build is worthless with my point distribution, it would take 30 minutes to an hour to get the XP needed with a full group, and I would screw my teammates by bailing on them once I got what I selfishly need. WHY the grind in an unrelated part of the game! And don't even suggest I wait for a 14 win streak in arenas to get it done.

SOLUTION: Simply refund ALL 24 Att. points once you re-enter a town! How can anyone disagree with this simple solution? What in the world can cause the game to fall apart if everyone can change their point around like they change their skills? The two change systems are related - so I understand that Arena.net let's me switch all eight skills from Mesmer to Necro If I want (in town), but when I'm out of points, I can't switch the related distribution numbers? That's insane.

2. When someone completes the game once legitimately, allow all access to all classes and skills

Obviously this is a major change that will likely be laughed off, but it falls in line with keeping the two sides separate from grinding. I beat the game once. If I replay any mission from scratch for PvP purposes, I am grinding pure and simple. Forced to repeat an experience already finished for no good reason at all. What other game forces you to replay a 50-100 hour quest three times? I wouldn't want to even watch a movie three times for an unrelated purpose if I didn't have to, so why weigh us down?

PvE players can be rewarded with special outfits and special effects I guess, so people can still play that mode for their Barbie dress up desires... I don't care. Toss in some crazy looking, exotic weapons (same PvP stats though) and you're in business. I've legitimately beat PvE mode, so let me move on and stop holding me back please.

3. The skill point system.

You say you are still working on it, so I'll respect that. If you don't do request #2 (full access to everything after completion), then at least make sure that anyone who goes thrrough the game once can EASILY have all skills for both classes at the end.

You know you've made many PvP players happy when they can finally enjoy PvP completely and separately from PvE post-ascension (until the mission pack comes out). I can say that the PvE mode is one of the most fun gaming experiences I've had in over a decade. Honestly! People only get upset over something they care about.

You guys did a wonderful job with PvE in what I thought was going to be a throw in for the deep PvP experience I was looking for (I play fighting games and online FPS competively). It's just a shame to see that the real meat of the game for long term enjoyment is hampered by your forced descisions to grind away in PvE. Please make the changes needed, and thanks again for an awesome product. As for now, I'm off to upset a UW group by getting my XP with them and leaving. My build sucks, so I'll be just there to leech off of their kills. There has to be a better way.

Cry Baby :'(

Tuna · Jun 23, 2005, 01:27 AM // 01:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by spirit_of_ice

The only misconception there is is that by posting you will actually change the opinion of any of hte posters of the forum, or the areanet staff.

You're probably right. However, posting the ideas of a PvPer will (hopefully) spread understanding and clear up some other misconceptions. I don't want to even think about who does and who does not influence the Arena Net staff

Quote:

UAS toggle- knocks out any kind of PvE reward, and there arent enough asthetic rewards to make up for it.

I think we all agree that UAS toggle (for PvP only chars) will only hurt those who enjoy PvP and PvE. It will help those who PvP only and have no effect on those who only PvE. I will also agree that the casual fanbase is almost entirely made up of those who enjoy both PvP and PvE. Saying that, I will focus on the aforementioned group.

A UAX button will have a heavy effect (game balance not rewards/replayability etc.) on PvP but none on PvE. The group of people in question enjoy PvE so if they want to construct a better PvE character they still have to unlock skills. The problem comes when the PvEer wants to PvP. If this person who we will call Joe wants to PvP with his PvE character, he is at a noticable disadvantage. The only real way to know how Joe feels about this situation is to ask him, so if you fit 'Joe' please respond. However, I will give my view.

Depending on the X in UAX, Joe can have a number of disadvantages. The easiest way to solve this is to recreate his PvE character as a PvP to gain X advantage. It is agrueable that Joe may have little experience with X, but I have a fair amount of faith that Joe can figure it out pretty quick. It is also helpfull if Joe is in a guild or active on a forum to gain advice about elements of Guild Wars that he is unfamiliar with. It might also be good if the skills that are unlocked are limited.

I agree there should be more asthetic rewards.

Quote:

UAS upon game completion- Knocks out any replayability, and lets people play classes they know nothing about without practicing with them first, causing much aggro in PvP when people play classes they are unfamiliar with, and I think everybody would agree there is already far too much aggro on the PvP field without the calls of "noob" being added.

I hit on most of the issues here in the last few paragraphs. I will admit that I am not very familiar with pug PvP however, what I have seen is in accorinances with what you have stated: ugly. My absolute first recomendation when play Guild Wars is to join an active guild that shares your intrests. This is the easiest way to avoid the horrid side of the PvP scene and gain much knowledge. If you have abolutely no idea how to play a class and can't be bothered to ask the steps are as follows: 1. random 4v4 arena. 2. tombs. 3. more tombs. I don't think player ignorance is justification to not allow UAX

Quote:

UAS for classes you complete game with- not needed at all, by the end of the game you should have unlocked almost every none elite skill, and elite skils are given SoC for a reason.

If you do all the skill quests, yes, you will have most of the skills. However, whatever skill points you earn will *not* be enough to gain the rest for both classess unless your grind to roughly 1million exp. I don't agree with UAX for PvE in any form, as that *will* kill PvE. Also, if you get UAX on completion of the game you still have to beat it 3 times minimum to get everything.

Quote:

Unlocking via PvP- no qualms, if they did this itd make me happier than any of the other solutions

Why there isn't a system for this is beyond me. However, as you stated yourself we aren't changing anyones opinions

Quote:

Which is why I wish they had made the changing your secondary profession better. Giving people say, all the skill points they spent on secondary skills back when you change secondary.

Thats roughly the same as UAS, especially if you could redo quests.

Quote:

Once you have unlocked all the skills for your class and secondary, then unlocknig skills for other classes becomes optional if you take the route of assigning people classes, and you also know that the people will be good at playing it. You should be using your time playing through PvE to learn the ropes of your character, and by the time you have got to end game you should be able to head into PvP and whoop ass.

You do learn a bit about your character playing PvE but it is really far to different to really apply most of it to PvP.

Quote:

Finding solutions is always about working around restrictions, otherwhise you wouldn't ahve a problem that needs a solution. working with a limited skillset makes you a much better player over time, as you begin to rely on things other than what skills you have on the bar- things like tactics, timing and positioning.

I think having 8 skills on your bar is enough restriction.

Quote:

Using the old solutions which you know people disagree with doesnt get you anywhere. New solutions are the way forward.

It is clear that understanding between PvPers and PvEers has not been reached. Not only do we disagree (which is not only fine but also inevitable) we also have no idea why on earth the other side is spewing such 'blashphemy.' Untill understanding is achieved no discussion about new solutions will occur with out it eventually sliding into an arguement about grind or UAX.

-Tuna, member of DrkH

eventhorizen · Jun 23, 2005, 01:43 AM // 01:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Suggestions are after the rant:

I don't understand how Arena.net just continues to stick their thumb in the eye of players who want the creative freedom to enjoy the PvP sandbox of creating and executing innovative builds.

Stick their thumbs in the eyes of players? You should be thanking A.net very kindly for releasing this game, free from monthly fees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

WHY is it so tightly connected to PvE to get the most out of it? There is no logical sense to it...

Because its all part of the same game, there is the logical sense. Take another game I play for example, Eve-Online, thats like saying you enjoy making money so why cant you make money all alone in the high level areas without risking the threat of losing all your gains.
Or CounterStrike, you like killing the enemy, but you dont like dying, even though its part of the same game, so why cant you have a God mode?

Albeit I dont see PvE as a negative, a risk I have to face in order to play.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

The reason why pure PvE players don't get these complaints is because they don't HAVE to put hundreds of hours into PvP just to enjoy their adventures. One side (PvE) gets to be free to play as they wish, while the other side (PvP) is just handcuffed to a contextually unrelated gameplay experience. How is that not discrimination? How about a system equal for ALL to enjoy the half of the game that THEY want to play?

Pure PvE players are a small group of players, thats probably why youv not come across any of their complaints, most of them might not even use this forum for all you know.
Your right, PvP is not non-consensual in GW, PvE is not non-consensual either, you can choose whether or not you are going to PvE.
I suppose a land, a world, an enviroment of characters and rules and concepts is in no way related to fighting other players for the favour of that lands Gods, or competing in wars that are the folklore of that land.
Contextually unrelated? In the same way boxing has nothing to do with wanting fame or glory in the real world...

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

It is this issue alone that has me pulling my hair and drove me to post this thread. I've taken 160 enjoyable hours to do all of PvE. Only now is most of my time in PvP until the expansion. I have soooooo many ideas for my combo class, that I spend hours refining my techniques and testing in arenas. Thrills and chills, right?

Well, it's great until I run out of Attributes and am stuck with a test build so off the wall specifc, that I can't easily get back to a 'normal' build. Go play PvE? First off WHY the ball and chain? Does PvE have to play 20 PvP matches before than can capture an elite? Not to mention that my build is very arena/PvP specific, that I can't farm my way to 24 refund points. It used to take me 15 grinding minutes to solo farm Golems at 672 XP a mob for this purpose,... now you are even taking THAT away from us.

You gain EXP in PvP, nuff said. (btw how many other games offer this?)

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I can say that the PvE mode is one of the most fun gaming experiences I've had in over a decade.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

How about a system equal for ALL to enjoy the half of the game that THEY want to play?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

The reason why pure PvE players don't get these complaints is because they don't HAVE to put hundreds of hours into PvP just to enjoy their adventures.

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

I could make a run in UW or FoW, but my build is worthless with my point distribution, it would take 30 minutes to an hour to get the XP needed with a full group, and I would screw my teammates by bailing on them once I got what I selfishly need. WHY the grind in an unrelated part of the game!

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Go play PvE? First off WHY the ball and chain?

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

As for now, I'm off to upset a UW group by getting my XP with them and leaving. My build sucks, so I'll be just there to leech off of their kills.

Dude p1ss off, attention seeking whiner scum like you is the last thing any game needs, I hope you moan yourself out of Guild Wars real soon.

spirit_of_ice · Jun 23, 2005, 09:47 AM // 09:47

Well, this has become practically defunct now, as Anet are introducing the only one I ahd no qualms with, PvP unlocking- if you havent read the future update thing, go do it now.

There we go, problem solved, now hopefully we can all go back to enjoying the game.

arredondo · Jun 23, 2005, 02:53 PM // 14:53

Yep! It shows that everyone who's interested in serious PvP play can make a difference when they put their voices together. There's soon to be no more discrimination. Three cheers for the Guild Wars Civil Rights era! Arena.net is addressing what this and other threads have been saying all along...

"Why do PvE players get to enjoy their game without touching PvP, but PvP players are forced to play PvE over and over again?"

The rock-headed selfish debaters who wanted to keep PvE as the main focus instead of an equal and fair experience for all can now go cry softly in their pillow. You play GW your way (as it remains unchanged), and let us play GW our way.

The only remaining concern I have that I'm sure they'll eventually fix is the final PvE ball and chain left on the pure PvP player. Now more than before is there a need to allow a full reset of all 24 Attribute Refund Points when leaving the PVP battlefield. Earning 6,000 in PvP to simply change the stats to match up with your builds is crazy. And since PvP toons can't access any farming areas to do it faster, they need 15-20 wins just to get their points back (or delete their character and restart).

Once that is adjusted, hopefully there will no longer be any reason for any PvP player to do ANY PvE that they don't want.... just as now no PvE player has no reason to do PvP if they don't want.

rwt2006 · Jun 23, 2005, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Dude, just deal with how the game is, it's fine how its made u just want everything with no time to work for it.

arredondo · Jun 23, 2005, 03:29 PM // 15:29

I want to "work" at creating and testing a dozen builds to bring to battle, depending on the needs of my eventual guild and team. There's no reason, absolutely no reason for them to limit switching Attribute Points away from battle.

Apply the system to your eight selected skills. Did Arena.net screw up by not making you "work" for changing your eight skills in town whenever you want? Switching secondaries? Should you have to earn 6,000 XP to make those changes, or "work for it" as you say of Attribute Points? Try to fully answer any of these questions without sounding like a hypocrite.

Of course those restrictions would be ludicrous, as it is for the way refund points are now handled. All three are connected to each other... all of them should be free of unnecessary restrictions when in town. Attribute Refund Points should be fully refunded when leaving the battleground.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jun 23, 2005, 03:43 PM // 15:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

Yep! It shows that everyone who's interested in serious PvP play can make a difference when they put their voices together. There's soon to be no more discrimination. Three cheers for the Guild Wars Civil Rights era! Arena.net is addressing what this and other threads have been saying all along...

You know that "separate but equal" never worked for the real Civil Rights movement, yes?

Only complete integration—including forcible integration of the schools, and really large-scale affirmative action programs including 'quotas' of minority personnel required to be placed in certain positions—ever came close to actually addressing the problem, and the economic separation of the races is still a major issue today.

Don't be comparing this to the Civil Rights movement; if anything, it's the exact opposite: we started with everyone completely integrated.

Your so-called 'Civil Rights era' has been a movement to separate play, and give the 'tough kids' and their gangs—excuse me: Guilds—their own playground.

Now, I'm not saying that isn't a good thing: it is, and I'm all in favor of it. However, comparing it to the Civil Rights movement is a complete denial of everything for which the real Civil Rights movement stood.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Kishin · Jun 23, 2005, 03:59 PM // 15:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

The only remaining concern I have that I'm sure they'll eventually fix is the final PvE ball and chain left on the pure PvP player. Now more than before is there a need to allow a full reset of all 24 Attribute Refund Points when leaving the PVP battlefield. Earning 6,000 in PvP to simply change the stats to match up with your builds is crazy. And since PvP toons can't access any farming areas to do it faster, they need 15-20 wins just to get their points back (or delete their character and restart).

Once that is adjusted, hopefully there will no longer be any reason for any PvP player to do ANY PvE that they don't want.... just as now no PvE player has no reason to do PvP if they don't want.

I'm totally in agreement with you in regards to the PvP unlocking update, but I really don't understand why you don't just delete a PvP only character to respec them. Since everything you have is based off what you've unlocked, you can just get it again with a few clicks of the mouse when you recreate your character. You essentially do have an unlimited number of refund points with PvP-only characters this way. I've deleted my PvP character dozens of times, and each time been able to rebuild him exactly as he was before, with no loss to me. Your items will be the same, your Fame will be the same.... So really, your situation isn't really a problem at all, unless you're doing the testing on a PvE character (which I can't see the point in doing). Basically, why complain about something you can easily circumvent?

arredondo · Jun 23, 2005, 04:11 PM // 16:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Siran Dunmorgan

You know that "separate but equal" never worked for the real Civil Rights movement, yes?

Only complete integration—including forcible integration of the schools, and really large-scale affirmative action programs including 'quotas' of minority personnel required to be placed in certain positions—ever came close to actually addressing the problem, and the economic separation of the races is still a major issue today.

Don't be comparing this to the Civil Rights movement; if anything, it's the exact opposite: we started with everyone completely integrated.

Your so-called 'Civil Rights era' has been a movement to separate play, and give the 'tough kids' and their gangs—excuse me: Guilds—their own playground.

Now, I'm not saying that isn't a good thing: it is, and I'm all in favor of it. However, comparing it to the Civil Rights movement is a complete denial of everything for which the real Civil Rights movement stood.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Wow.... someone actually made something out of an offhand comment, lol. Dude, in no way is anything related to gaming seriously comparable to the Civil Rights era. However, as a goofy analogy that wasn't supposed to be anything more than just that, I am closer to being logically correct than you are.

Civil Rights was about equal rights. Everyone having basically the same opportunity as the next person, regardless of status. You want something, then it's your choice to get it as much as the next "equal" guy, be it a job, a home.... whatever.

What you aren't seeing is that you also have equal rights to NOT want something if you so choose. If you don't want to pay a tax on an item that your "equal" neighbor isn't paying a tax on, why should you? Why should you HAVE to sit in the back of the bus if you don't want when your "equal" neighbor does not? Why do you HAVE to use the servant's entrance to dine at a posh restaurant when your "equal" neighbor is allowed to go through the main entrance?

For the benefit of your comparisons, I'll take all of that to say, it was unfair for PvE players to not have to play PvP to enjoy all of PvE if they didn't want to, but PvP players were forced to put in hundreds of hours of PvE to get the most out of their mode.

PvE players were very priviliged in this respect, and couldn't see what the fuss was about on the PvP side... THEY weren't being forced to do something they didn't want to do (100+ hours of PvP just to advance in PvE). Instead, they just attacked us for complaining. That was where the discrimination existed. That is what will be changed next week.

arredondo · Jun 23, 2005, 04:19 PM // 16:19

Kishin: That's an unnecessary grinding activity. You lose a match, you want to go from an Illusion/Hex MeNe to a Domination/Blood MeNe. By getting all 24 points back upon return, you'll be back in battle in under a minute. Your way (the current way) takes 5-10 minutes as you type in character name to delete the old, create new name and stats, choose items, etc.

As you say yourself, they both accomplish the exact same thing, so why not just go for the expiditious option? I mean I can remove all my clothes everytime I want to take a leak, but it's simpler just to pull down the zipper to handle my business.

Siran Dunmorgan · Jun 23, 2005, 04:41 PM // 16:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by arredondo

What you aren't seeing is that you also have equal rights to NOT want something if you so choose. If you don't want to pay a tax on an item that your "equal" neighbor isn't paying a tax on, why should you? Why should you HAVE to sit in the back of the bus if you don't want when your "equal" neighbor does not? Why do you HAVE to use the servant's entrance to dine at a posh restaurant when your "equal" neighbor is allowed to go through the main entrance?

So the solution is to build separate restaurants? Run separate bus lines?

"We don't want to ride your buses. We don't want to eat in your restaurants. We don't even want to live in your neighborhoods. We want our own restaurants. We want our own bus lines. We want our own neighborhoods. And if you weakling-n00b-carebears come into our neighborhoods, we'll make you regret it, 'cause you're not tough enough to cut it on our side of the tracks. Oh—and stuff your gun control laws, too, 'cause we want all the best military-grade weapons and armor for free."

Well—yeah. The nice thing about Guild Wars is that that's actually likely to work, where it wouldn't in real life.

—Siran Dunmorgan

Bingley Joe · Jun 23, 2005, 04:50 PM // 16:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spike

sigh yet another pvp player who wants to ruin the pve game. Go Play CS if all you want to do is PVP.

Haven't gotten to the end of this thread yet, so perhaps someone else has already pointed out how utterly moronic your post is (sure hope so).

If not, I'd like to point out how utterly moronic your post is. Useless chaff like this really ticks me off. I have a cat - dumb as a brick - that likes to lie in the bathtub and howl just to hear the sound of her own voice, so maybe I should be a little bit more understanding..

Perhaps next time you feel like contributing to a thread, you could at least attempt to understand the direction the OP is coming from.